Autos Or Manuals?
February-6th-2003 | 01:54 AM
#1
Thread Starter
Lack of Zoom Zoom!
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 207
From: Denver, Colorado
Autos Or Manuals?
A long debated battle over whats better Auto's Or Manual's Both have there good points and bad....but Ive herd that Mazda's Auto Tranny Is Stronger and Better then the manual...does anyone know if this is true?
February-6th-2003 | 11:51 AM
#2
Registered User
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 1,122
From: Dallas, Texas
I don't really know about strength, but if you're after speed, it's no contest- it's manual all the way. 
Small 4-cylinder engines like ours do not have enough torque to make an automatic work well- they suck a significant amount of power with torque converter slip, and the wider-spaced gear ratios (4 speeds vs. 5) won't allow the engine to stay in the fat part of the powerband. A manual-tranny Protege will ALWAYS be faster than an automatic by at least 0.5-1.0 seconds in a 1/4 mile race with equal mods. You also can't get an LSD for the Protege's auto tranny, which hurts its ability to put power to the ground.
The main reason to buy an automatic Protege is convenience in city traffic. IMHO there is NO performance-related justification for buying one.
Small 4-cylinder engines like ours do not have enough torque to make an automatic work well- they suck a significant amount of power with torque converter slip, and the wider-spaced gear ratios (4 speeds vs. 5) won't allow the engine to stay in the fat part of the powerband. A manual-tranny Protege will ALWAYS be faster than an automatic by at least 0.5-1.0 seconds in a 1/4 mile race with equal mods. You also can't get an LSD for the Protege's auto tranny, which hurts its ability to put power to the ground.The main reason to buy an automatic Protege is convenience in city traffic. IMHO there is NO performance-related justification for buying one.
February-6th-2003 | 12:01 PM
#3
Use this to install stuff
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 1,069
From: State College, PA
Originally posted by carguycw
The main reason to buy an automatic Protege is convenience in city traffic. IMHO there is NO performance-related justification for buying one.
The main reason to buy an automatic Protege is convenience in city traffic. IMHO there is NO performance-related justification for buying one.
February-6th-2003 | 07:31 PM
#4
Protege Newbie
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 30
From: New Jersey, USA
I posted this back in August, just before I got my Pro5. Thought it might help with your decision.
The P5 will be my first new car, after owning five used cars over the years. I like to think of myself as a "driver" and have always driven stick ever since I bought my first car in high school, a 1987 Ford Escort GT. And while I have said that I'd never buy an automatic, I test drove all three flavors of the Protege transmission, from the standard auto to the sport auto and finally the manual.
Since I have a second car that is more sporty than the P5, I figured it wouldn't hurt to try out the automatic for a more convenient daily driver. I have a 25-mile commute each way with very little traffic, but I'm in the city a lot and there are times when a late-night drive home would be a lot nicer without having to shift. Always driving a 5-speed has gotten me stuck a few times too, when I would have liked to have someone take the keys for me but they didn't know how to drive it.
The first Protege5 I drove was an auto, and I'll have to say, even the pre-model-change auto trans was one of the nicest I have ever driven. The gear changes came at the right time and didn't seem to get confused on hills like a lot of automatics I'm used to. I definitely felt a little naked with my left foot just resting on the floor, but with such a comfortable ride I didn't really mind not having total control.
The 2002.5 with the sport automatic was the first tiptronic I ever tried, and man was that fun! I see where the automakers are going with that one, and getting a balance between controlling the gear changes and not having to deal with the clutch is nice. However, "dealing" with the clutch is half of what makes driving fun for me, so any automatic--even with the tip--loses a lot. A friend of mine has an Audi A4 with the tiptronic and said that he loved it at first too, but after a month the fun wore off and he now tends to stay in full-auto mode.
The last Protege5 I tested came with the 5-speed, which is really what I wanted in the first place. It was the third dealer I went to after the first told me manuals were "obsolete" and he tried to find one for two other guys and couldn't. Sure buddy, whatever. The second dealer only had automatics on the lot and wasn't interested in ordering a car configured the way I wanted. No thank you, good bye.
So finally I got to drive the P5 in a stick, and it's a good thing I did, because it made the decision an easy one. The throws weren't too long like a lot of other sticks in this price range. And the clutch...could it *be* any lighter?? My other car is an '83 Porsche 944, so I'm used to a heavy clutch, but man, I could barely tell I was pushing this thing to the floor! Not that I am complaining though, since this car is going to be a lot friendler those times when I'm stuck in traffic. The manual Protege5 didn't seem exceptionally zippier than the sport-auto, which is a testament to how good the automatic tranny really is. But at a premium of $900, why bother when the manual is so user-friendly? I'd much rather put that money toward other options I'd rather have.
Since I have a second car that is more sporty than the P5, I figured it wouldn't hurt to try out the automatic for a more convenient daily driver. I have a 25-mile commute each way with very little traffic, but I'm in the city a lot and there are times when a late-night drive home would be a lot nicer without having to shift. Always driving a 5-speed has gotten me stuck a few times too, when I would have liked to have someone take the keys for me but they didn't know how to drive it.
The first Protege5 I drove was an auto, and I'll have to say, even the pre-model-change auto trans was one of the nicest I have ever driven. The gear changes came at the right time and didn't seem to get confused on hills like a lot of automatics I'm used to. I definitely felt a little naked with my left foot just resting on the floor, but with such a comfortable ride I didn't really mind not having total control.
The 2002.5 with the sport automatic was the first tiptronic I ever tried, and man was that fun! I see where the automakers are going with that one, and getting a balance between controlling the gear changes and not having to deal with the clutch is nice. However, "dealing" with the clutch is half of what makes driving fun for me, so any automatic--even with the tip--loses a lot. A friend of mine has an Audi A4 with the tiptronic and said that he loved it at first too, but after a month the fun wore off and he now tends to stay in full-auto mode.
The last Protege5 I tested came with the 5-speed, which is really what I wanted in the first place. It was the third dealer I went to after the first told me manuals were "obsolete" and he tried to find one for two other guys and couldn't. Sure buddy, whatever. The second dealer only had automatics on the lot and wasn't interested in ordering a car configured the way I wanted. No thank you, good bye.
So finally I got to drive the P5 in a stick, and it's a good thing I did, because it made the decision an easy one. The throws weren't too long like a lot of other sticks in this price range. And the clutch...could it *be* any lighter?? My other car is an '83 Porsche 944, so I'm used to a heavy clutch, but man, I could barely tell I was pushing this thing to the floor! Not that I am complaining though, since this car is going to be a lot friendler those times when I'm stuck in traffic. The manual Protege5 didn't seem exceptionally zippier than the sport-auto, which is a testament to how good the automatic tranny really is. But at a premium of $900, why bother when the manual is so user-friendly? I'd much rather put that money toward other options I'd rather have.
February-6th-2003 | 10:03 PM
#5
Registered User
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 246
The Protege 2.0L engine is one that is reasonably peppy if kept in its powerband. IMO, that means keeping the RPMs between 3000 and 5000 if you really want to go zoom. 
This is way easier to do in a manual transmission car, because YOU decide when to shift -- not a bunch of fluid and frictive surfaces.
The same engine is also very fuel efficient if kept in what I shall call its 'economy band' -- under 2750 RPM.
You can also do this yourself.
Furthermore, you can more easily shift into neutral to coast down hills to save even more gas.
The automatic has to compromise between economy mode and performance mode, and so it is sort of stuck in between. Furthermore, it doesn't have enough brains to do it quite as well as an alert driver can do. It's the worst of both worlds!
On the other hand, it's less effort, if that's what you're into.
Groovily, lots of new transmission options are hitting the market -- six speeds, shiftable automatics, and continuously variable transmissions. Not all of these are brand new, but I think they're gaining in popularity. Pretty soon there'll be lots of transmission choices on cars of all styles.
This is way easier to do in a manual transmission car, because YOU decide when to shift -- not a bunch of fluid and frictive surfaces.
The same engine is also very fuel efficient if kept in what I shall call its 'economy band' -- under 2750 RPM.
You can also do this yourself.
Furthermore, you can more easily shift into neutral to coast down hills to save even more gas.
The automatic has to compromise between economy mode and performance mode, and so it is sort of stuck in between. Furthermore, it doesn't have enough brains to do it quite as well as an alert driver can do. It's the worst of both worlds!
On the other hand, it's less effort, if that's what you're into.
Groovily, lots of new transmission options are hitting the market -- six speeds, shiftable automatics, and continuously variable transmissions. Not all of these are brand new, but I think they're gaining in popularity. Pretty soon there'll be lots of transmission choices on cars of all styles.
February-7th-2003 | 11:02 AM
#7
Registered User
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 1,122
From: Dallas, Texas
Originally posted by foxymazda
I personally have taken the view that automatics are stronger than manuals but that is baising my decision on the many Nissan tests I have taken where the a/t of an xterra or a frontier can pull 5000lbs and a manual can only haul 3500.
I personally have taken the view that automatics are stronger than manuals but that is baising my decision on the many Nissan tests I have taken where the a/t of an xterra or a frontier can pull 5000lbs and a manual can only haul 3500.
If you look at pickup trucks, the automatic models always have higher towing ratings; however, in reality, the manual-tranny models are often capable of towing the same weight as an automatic *if* they are driven skillfully. The manufacturers rate them lower so they can say "I Told You So" to cover their butt if a goofball driver lets the clutch out too fast going up an incline and rips the teeth off 2nd gear.
February-7th-2003 | 03:48 PM
#8
Protege Newbie
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 29
From: Vancouver Canada
the manual-tranny models are often capable of towing the same weight as an automatic *if* they are driven skillfully.
February-7th-2003 | 04:16 PM
#9
Registered User
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 602
From: Virginia and Brooklyn, NYC
after reading all of what ya'll wrote ya'll still ain't really made any good points?! Yea the manual can beat the auto by a second or two but overall a second really isn't alot to go by if your racing. Right?! who cares about who takes off first. Down the line that second can be made up. 
February-7th-2003 | 05:08 PM
#10
Registered User
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 1,122
From: Dallas, Texas
Originally posted by akaveli
after reading all of what ya'll wrote ya'll still ain't really made any good points?! Yea the manual can beat the auto by a second or two but overall a second really isn't alot to go by if your racing. Right?! who cares about who takes off first. Down the line that second can be made up.
after reading all of what ya'll wrote ya'll still ain't really made any good points?! Yea the manual can beat the auto by a second or two but overall a second really isn't alot to go by if your racing. Right?! who cares about who takes off first. Down the line that second can be made up.
If you lost by a full second, you just got spanked! 
Actually, I did a little searching on this topic, and it appears that the typical difference between a stock manual and automatic Protege ES in the 1/4 mile is about 0.6 second (~16.4 vs. ~17.0). With equal launches, the automatic still loses by 4.7 lengths. I think this qualifies as "alot". I stand by my earlier statements.
I'm also curious how a second can be "made up" in a drag race.
In a car with low horsepower (let's face it, that's us) a 1/4 mile race is basically over after you shift out of 2nd. All you can do is hold your foot to the floor and wait for the finish line.
February-7th-2003 | 09:03 PM
#11
Registered User
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 260
From: central coast calif.
although i would rather have a manual (wife has a retarded left foot and can't operate the clutch and shift gears at the same time ) ) i do have to say that the auto is very good. it shifts at good rpms and isn't too sluggish. it's the only auto i've driven that will redline in each gear when you mash the stupid pedal. it is also alot easier to drive on hills than a manual.
vehicles with automatic transmissions require less maint. over their lifespan. other than changing the fluid autos need little maint, unlike a manual that needs a clutch every 80k-100k. they also reduce the stress on other components because they shift much smoother so motor and tranny mounts last longer, driveshafts last longer also. this info comes from a study done on big rigs by kensworth.
autos are boring, stick shifts have a much higher fun factor.
commutes are boring, stick shifts suck in traffic.
) ) i do have to say that the auto is very good. it shifts at good rpms and isn't too sluggish. it's the only auto i've driven that will redline in each gear when you mash the stupid pedal. it is also alot easier to drive on hills than a manual.vehicles with automatic transmissions require less maint. over their lifespan. other than changing the fluid autos need little maint, unlike a manual that needs a clutch every 80k-100k. they also reduce the stress on other components because they shift much smoother so motor and tranny mounts last longer, driveshafts last longer also. this info comes from a study done on big rigs by kensworth.
autos are boring, stick shifts have a much higher fun factor.
commutes are boring, stick shifts suck in traffic.
February-7th-2003 | 10:04 PM
#12
2002 RX-7 Spirit 'R'
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 872
From: Brampton, Ontario, Canada
Manuals all de way
seriously even tho i'm still young
when i just drive normally (not pushing de engine) (i don't drive normally much ) I don't think at all about shifting....
and i drive normally during traffic.
so the shifting in stop and go traffic doesn't really effect me... i don't think about it at all
so IMO - manuals all de way
(don't u just love wathing the tach hit redline, in every gear)
(can't in 5th speed governor cuts in )
seriously even tho i'm still young
when i just drive normally (not pushing de engine) (i don't drive normally much
) I don't think at all about shifting....and i drive normally during traffic.
so the shifting in stop and go traffic doesn't really effect me... i don't think about it at all
so IMO - manuals all de way
(don't u just love wathing the tach hit redline, in every gear)
(can't in 5th speed governor cuts in
)
February-7th-2003 | 10:28 PM
#13
Registered User
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 144
From: Sarasota, FL
Well I must say with my turboed up Protege, the 5 speed is the best. I can easily stay out of my turbo range. Not a problem shifting at 3 before the turbo starts to get goin. I will say that gets very tiring not trying to hit the turbo spot in traffic though. I only drove about 200 miles with out and I loved every minute of it. I have a 99 Protege (for sale) that's auto and its alright. Slower then slow, slow slow though. But that's alright. For traffic and bridges around here isn't too bad with a manual though, once you get used to driving a stick its all second nature. Everything just grooves along in sequence without even thinking about it. I love my stick much more then my auto, I'm never going back until I am unable to shift.
February-7th-2003 | 11:23 PM
#14
Protege Enthusiast
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 50
From: Connecticut
About two months into my Pro I've thought about this subject often. Over the past 5 years I've had a manual Wrangler, manual (obviously) SVT Contour, and an automatic Camry. Bought the manual Pro...and sometimes I have mixed feelings. It sucks when cold, and I think the shift itself is pretty long and notchy if you are just casually shifting.
Today on the Van Wyck (those in the New York area know how much this road can SUCK) I was sittin in traffic working the clutch for about a half hour in the snow wishing I had an auto. But when that traffic opened up...vrrrrrrm zoooooommmm there's no way I'd trade the ability to ride 3rd to about 5500 rpm and makin that smooth quick shift to 4th.
Manuals for me until I'm too old to shift em...
Today on the Van Wyck (those in the New York area know how much this road can SUCK) I was sittin in traffic working the clutch for about a half hour in the snow wishing I had an auto. But when that traffic opened up...vrrrrrrm zoooooommmm there's no way I'd trade the ability to ride 3rd to about 5500 rpm and makin that smooth quick shift to 4th.
Manuals for me until I'm too old to shift em...
February-8th-2003 | 10:44 AM
#15
Certified Sick Individual
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 1,141
From: Houston, TX.
Originally posted by Rwt1
It sucks when cold, and I think the shift itself is pretty long and notchy if you are just casually shifting.
It sucks when cold, and I think the shift itself is pretty long and notchy if you are just casually shifting.
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