NGK ZRF5F-11's and Octane
February-8th-2005 | 02:03 PM
#17
Registered User
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 14
Octane is a measurement of a fuel’s resistance to ignition. Ideally, the air/fuel mixture will ignite at the proper time and burn smoothly through the power stroke. The idea is, one powerful combustion of better than several. randomly-ignited small flame fronts. When you can precisely control the point at which the fuel will ignite, maximum performance of the engine can be achieved, and power-robbing knock and ping will be eliminated. Knock and ping are a result of abnormal ignition, or multiple flame fronts colliding within the combustion chamber during the compression stroke.. Heavy sustained knocking can cause wear and damage to parts of the car, reduce fuel economy and increase your car's exhaust emissions. Now according to some car manufacturers splurging on high grade gas may be a waste of money because they are built to run on regular gas. Yet the gasoline companies disagree.
Was that fundamentaly corect?............................***!
Newer engine technologies will detect fuel octane based on engine perf and adjust accordingly. There is a lot of stuff out there that performance differences are a myth, but nowadays there is engine technology that WILL adjust performance based on fuel (or the effects which it can detect, such as knock).
The extra octane will allow the ECU to advance the engine timing more.
I also had a friend that worked for an oil company, and he said that the higher octane fuels (I think his company supplied Amoco at the time) do have some detergent and anti-corrosion additives that the 87octane fuels didn't, and also usually contain a bit of ethanol, which helps for water absorbtion and anti-freezing.
Refining higher octane fuels is a costly but performance-enhancing process. Based on the age of your vehicle or its engine specifications, you may require higher-than-regular octane gasoline for best performance. The benefits of higher octane fuels are proven and they increase with the age of a vehicle.
Other ' experts ' say that when a car hits 25,000 miles the octane rating jumps to about 4 or 5 octane numbers.
My car is modified with a CAI, (I know it doesnt change the world) it was knocking as previously mentioned in my original post, once the 94 was put in NOTHING AT ALL, prob solved.
There are diferences in performance between the octain levels and octain booster (personally I use the booster as a cleaner and HP maintainer instead of looking for more power with it, but in some cases there are gains that can be made from it.) here are some test that were done to show the diference between diferent octain levels, and Octain boosters, as well as combinations.
http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/72498/
TO: Goldstar
Personally I FEEL THE DIFERENCE, if you dont beleve me, I couldnt care less! PRIMARALY THIS IS A DEBATABLE ISHUE AND WHAT YOU HAVE IS AN OPINION, AND SO DO I, IN NOW WAY IS YOURS MORE IMPORTAINT THEN MINE, SO YOU CAN KEEP YOUR COMENTS TO YOURSELF THEY ARE NOT APRECIATED, GO TO A FLAME WAR site FOR THATY STUFF.
AS FOR ALL OF YOUR COMENTS, ALL OF WITCH ARE OPINIATED, AND OPEN FOR DEBATE, UNLESS YOU HAVE SOME NEW FOUND FACTS TO INDICATE HIGHER OCTAIN LEVELS PRODUCE NO GAINS, THAT IS INDISPUTABLE!
UNTILL THEN Thank you for your COMENTS. ALL of witch mean NOTHING!
Was that fundamentaly corect?............................***!
Newer engine technologies will detect fuel octane based on engine perf and adjust accordingly. There is a lot of stuff out there that performance differences are a myth, but nowadays there is engine technology that WILL adjust performance based on fuel (or the effects which it can detect, such as knock).
The extra octane will allow the ECU to advance the engine timing more.
I also had a friend that worked for an oil company, and he said that the higher octane fuels (I think his company supplied Amoco at the time) do have some detergent and anti-corrosion additives that the 87octane fuels didn't, and also usually contain a bit of ethanol, which helps for water absorbtion and anti-freezing.
Refining higher octane fuels is a costly but performance-enhancing process. Based on the age of your vehicle or its engine specifications, you may require higher-than-regular octane gasoline for best performance. The benefits of higher octane fuels are proven and they increase with the age of a vehicle.
Other ' experts ' say that when a car hits 25,000 miles the octane rating jumps to about 4 or 5 octane numbers.
My car is modified with a CAI, (I know it doesnt change the world) it was knocking as previously mentioned in my original post, once the 94 was put in NOTHING AT ALL, prob solved.
There are diferences in performance between the octain levels and octain booster (personally I use the booster as a cleaner and HP maintainer instead of looking for more power with it, but in some cases there are gains that can be made from it.) here are some test that were done to show the diference between diferent octain levels, and Octain boosters, as well as combinations.
http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/72498/
TO: Goldstar
Personally I FEEL THE DIFERENCE, if you dont beleve me, I couldnt care less! PRIMARALY THIS IS A DEBATABLE ISHUE AND WHAT YOU HAVE IS AN OPINION, AND SO DO I, IN NOW WAY IS YOURS MORE IMPORTAINT THEN MINE, SO YOU CAN KEEP YOUR COMENTS TO YOURSELF THEY ARE NOT APRECIATED, GO TO A FLAME WAR site FOR THATY STUFF.
AS FOR ALL OF YOUR COMENTS, ALL OF WITCH ARE OPINIATED, AND OPEN FOR DEBATE, UNLESS YOU HAVE SOME NEW FOUND FACTS TO INDICATE HIGHER OCTAIN LEVELS PRODUCE NO GAINS, THAT IS INDISPUTABLE!
UNTILL THEN Thank you for your COMENTS. ALL of witch mean NOTHING!
Last edited by MProtegeLX; February-8th-2005 at 02:35 PM.
February-8th-2005 | 02:26 PM
#18
The man behind the mask
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 11,572
From: Birmingham, AL
MprotegeLX, your article proved just how wrong you really are. Let me explain:
"The extra octane will allow the ECU to advance the engine timing more."
This phrase is true EXCEPT for the fact it's not true when discussing protege's....like we are here. The Protege ECU does NOT advance timing under ANY situation. It holds base timing and only under pre-ignition situations will it retard the timing. IT WILL NEVER ADVANCE IT ANY.....(unless you have a rare mp3 ecu...in that case you are instructed to run 91+ anyway).
Also, for your last little rant about our comments not being worth anything, I disagree. The people posting information about octane ratings speak in complete sentances, do not type in all caps, and actually understand how cars (and our cars specifically) work. Also, I'm an ASE certified mechanic and have worked for Mazda, Ford and Mitsubishi as well as performance garages. I've owned more race cars than most people have owned beaters. I've built and blown more engines than anyone i've known. I know what works and what doesn't. If our opinions mean so little to you I suggest you start your own forum and recruit people whose opinion is acceptable to you.
"The extra octane will allow the ECU to advance the engine timing more."
This phrase is true EXCEPT for the fact it's not true when discussing protege's....like we are here. The Protege ECU does NOT advance timing under ANY situation. It holds base timing and only under pre-ignition situations will it retard the timing. IT WILL NEVER ADVANCE IT ANY.....(unless you have a rare mp3 ecu...in that case you are instructed to run 91+ anyway).
Also, for your last little rant about our comments not being worth anything, I disagree. The people posting information about octane ratings speak in complete sentances, do not type in all caps, and actually understand how cars (and our cars specifically) work. Also, I'm an ASE certified mechanic and have worked for Mazda, Ford and Mitsubishi as well as performance garages. I've owned more race cars than most people have owned beaters. I've built and blown more engines than anyone i've known. I know what works and what doesn't. If our opinions mean so little to you I suggest you start your own forum and recruit people whose opinion is acceptable to you.
February-8th-2005 | 03:16 PM
#19
Registered User
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 14
Originally Posted by Roddimus Prime
MprotegeLX, your article proved just how wrong you really are. Let me explain:
"The extra octane will allow the ECU to advance the engine timing more."
This phrase is true EXCEPT for the fact it's not true when discussing protege's....like we are here. The Protege ECU does NOT advance timing under ANY situation. It holds base timing and only under pre-ignition situations will it retard the timing. IT WILL NEVER ADVANCE IT ANY.....(unless you have a rare mp3 ecu...in that case you are instructed to run 91+ anyway).
Also, for your last little rant about our comments not being worth anything, I disagree. The people posting information about octane ratings speak in complete sentances, do not type in all caps, and actually understand how cars (and our cars specifically) work. Also, I'm an ASE certified mechanic and have worked for Mazda, Ford and Mitsubishi as well as performance garages. I've owned more race cars than most people have owned beaters. I've built and blown more engines than anyone i've known. I know what works and what doesn't. If our opinions mean so little to you I suggest you start your own forum and recruit people whose opinion is acceptable to you.
"The extra octane will allow the ECU to advance the engine timing more."
This phrase is true EXCEPT for the fact it's not true when discussing protege's....like we are here. The Protege ECU does NOT advance timing under ANY situation. It holds base timing and only under pre-ignition situations will it retard the timing. IT WILL NEVER ADVANCE IT ANY.....(unless you have a rare mp3 ecu...in that case you are instructed to run 91+ anyway).
Also, for your last little rant about our comments not being worth anything, I disagree. The people posting information about octane ratings speak in complete sentances, do not type in all caps, and actually understand how cars (and our cars specifically) work. Also, I'm an ASE certified mechanic and have worked for Mazda, Ford and Mitsubishi as well as performance garages. I've owned more race cars than most people have owned beaters. I've built and blown more engines than anyone i've known. I know what works and what doesn't. If our opinions mean so little to you I suggest you start your own forum and recruit people whose opinion is acceptable to you.
First off I wasnt talking to you when I said your opinion is worthless, I was talking to Goldstar who was insulting twords Me, if you felt attacked, Sory, not intended.
As for the timming advance, I was giving general info about octain (thought it was obvious, but)..... I was speaking in General not ONLY about the Protege. (but Im happy with the info on the Pro, I wasnt sure if the MP3 ECU would be the only one to advance, Im curious & want to know it the MSP ECU would do the same as the MP3?)
Good for you. youve done lots of work on cars, I was never debaiting your coments or auto skillz, I was REPLYING to a rude coment. As for my spelling, grammer, & CAP LOCKS. I DONT GIVE A **** ABOUT GRAMMER, AND I CAP LOCK TO REPRESENT ME SCREAMING, AS I CANT DO IT TO YOUR FACE, not yours in paticular, but anyone in general who is arguing with me, but thats besides the point.
I have never made rude coments, & I have not been insulting. Im simply stating my opinion, and the fact that it caries weight, (even if I havnt worked for every auto company there is), as much as anybodyelses opinion has.
If youll look in the post, the person who's opinion means nothing to me is Goldstar (and his OPINION IN QUESTION) is that I have the fundamentals of octain all wrong & so on. This has nothing to do with you, or doesnt your education allow you to understrand the point in the post where it states "To:Goldstar"
Have a nice day.
Last edited by MProtegeLX; February-8th-2005 at 03:52 PM.
February-8th-2005 | 03:59 PM
#20
Registered User
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 349
From: New Jersey
Originally Posted by MProtegeLX
First off I wasnt talking to you when I said your opinion is worthless, I was talking to Goldstar who was insulting twords Me, if you felt attacked, Sory, not intended.
If youll look in the post, the person who's opinion means nothing to me is Goldstar (and his OPINION IN QUESTION) is that I have the fundamentals of octain all wrong & so on. This has nothing to do with you, or doesnt your education allow you to understrand the point in the post where it states "To:Goldstar"
Have a nice day.
If youll look in the post, the person who's opinion means nothing to me is Goldstar (and his OPINION IN QUESTION) is that I have the fundamentals of octain all wrong & so on. This has nothing to do with you, or doesnt your education allow you to understrand the point in the post where it states "To:Goldstar"
Have a nice day.
02 DX Millenium Red
February-8th-2005 | 05:31 PM
#22
Registered User
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 14
Originally Posted by Roddimus Prime
I don't see you lasting here very long.......
Why is that?
I havnt been rude or insulting.
Im expressing my opinion, is this not a forum just for that?
Do I not have the right to have a opinion?
What is your Problem?
February-8th-2005 | 05:40 PM
#23
The man behind the mask
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 11,572
From: Birmingham, AL
i feel your reply to goldstar WAS rude and insulting. I re-read everything just to make sure but nowhere in his post did he insult you or tell your opinion didn't matter. You, however, DID tell him that.
This is a forum for sharing FACT's....off-topic is for sharing opionions unless someone says "whats your opinion?".
You have a right to your opinion you also have a right to keep it to yourself when you obviously don't know as much as some of the others posting.
What's my problem? Well ****, since I pretty much say who comes and goes...I'd have to say right now YOU are my problem.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~
I suggest you start over on a better foot. Maybe an apology is in order. We're real nice here but we don't tolerate fighting or bashing of any kind.
This is a forum for sharing FACT's....off-topic is for sharing opionions unless someone says "whats your opinion?".
You have a right to your opinion you also have a right to keep it to yourself when you obviously don't know as much as some of the others posting.
What's my problem? Well ****, since I pretty much say who comes and goes...I'd have to say right now YOU are my problem.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~
I suggest you start over on a better foot. Maybe an apology is in order. We're real nice here but we don't tolerate fighting or bashing of any kind.
February-8th-2005 | 06:11 PM
#24
Registered User
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 389
From: Brampton
Ok, ok ring the bell, cut it out, i rmember when me and Macdaddy were at each others throats one time and , you were right before rod. there is not rooms for scuffles, and i applogized to MacD, well if i didnt i am dong it right now...
... NOW I want a CLEAN FIGHT lol
joking... nah, its not worth to cut each other down.... but it is good to share opposing oppinions
but either way, there is another opinion on Octane that is over looked, and i beleive that buying higher grade fuel is not a total waste. and ihave read other articles that actual praise using higher grades , for the fact that they have less corrosive **** in it then lower grades, the phrase burning cleaner? what does that mean... well for the long run, i think you would add years to the life of your engine and working internals....
in terms of performance... it can be debated back and forth... but when idid my fixed runs of 200 km trips and refueling, i found that higher ocatine did give , every sooooooooooo slightly more economy.... BUT , take in the consideration the cost.
... NOW I want a CLEAN FIGHT lol
joking... nah, its not worth to cut each other down.... but it is good to share opposing oppinionsbut either way, there is another opinion on Octane that is over looked, and i beleive that buying higher grade fuel is not a total waste. and ihave read other articles that actual praise using higher grades , for the fact that they have less corrosive **** in it then lower grades, the phrase burning cleaner? what does that mean... well for the long run, i think you would add years to the life of your engine and working internals....
in terms of performance... it can be debated back and forth... but when idid my fixed runs of 200 km trips and refueling, i found that higher ocatine did give , every sooooooooooo slightly more economy.... BUT , take in the consideration the cost.
Last edited by Omron; February-8th-2005 at 06:14 PM.
February-8th-2005 | 06:21 PM
#25
Registered User
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 389
From: Brampton
Now there was one comment that MprotegeLX made , in terms of oil company/refinery costs of higher grades.
This statment is incorrect, in terms of cost of making higher grades. The cost is really mostly associated to Marketing, and simple supply and demand...
that costs of making it is alot less then you think of it...
its all spin... think about it , who can afford to buy higher ocatne fuel? people who have money... who need it ,
Charge them what ever you want
its the biggest scam on earth... lol hahaha oh well
This statment is incorrect, in terms of cost of making higher grades. The cost is really mostly associated to Marketing, and simple supply and demand...
that costs of making it is alot less then you think of it...
its all spin... think about it , who can afford to buy higher ocatne fuel? people who have money... who need it ,
Charge them what ever you want
its the biggest scam on earth... lol hahaha oh well
February-8th-2005 | 06:40 PM
#26
Thread Starter
Awesome Member
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 3,186
From: Pittsburgh PA
MProtegeLX--your link is entirely inapplicable to this discussion. We are not running high-compression Mopars here.
What Roddimus stated is correct.
Please don't go around spouting claims in my thread without proper backup. When you have dyno sheets for your Protege to prove your claim, I'll be happy to check them out.
What Roddimus stated is correct.
Please don't go around spouting claims in my thread without proper backup. When you have dyno sheets for your Protege to prove your claim, I'll be happy to check them out.
February-8th-2005 | 07:16 PM
#27
Registered User
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 14
Protégé owners are the most ignorant bunch I’ve ever seen, this is ridiculous, Rodimus, go **** yourself, if your GOD here, THIS IS A **** HOLE!
I WAS PLAYING NICE, ONLY RUDE TO THE ONE RUDE TO ME AND YOU WANT TO START **** BECAUSE YOU AND YOUR BUDIES HAVE BEEN ON THIS *** FORUM LONGER……….GO TO HELL ***** FARTS!
Believe what you want. I posted the fact that this subject is debatable, there are people saying it doesn’t help, and people saying it does. There is no proof disproving the other, and in fact, both sides wield evidence to prove there claims! THIS IS A DEBATABLE ISHUE!!!! *** HOLE!!!!!!!!!!
**** you all if this is how you are, go bomb Iran or come Bomb us, you ******* Freedom Fighting Posers only after oil anyway!
You **** must spend all day on this site, I mean come on Radimus, 5000+ post since 2003, Do you even have a real life????????????? You probably aint had ***** since ***** had you!!!!!!!!!!!!!
******* Queer, be GOD of your *** forum, and continue to **** yourself in the *** with a rusty fork, as me and my Dad take turns on your Mother
I wont be back, don’t worry I wouldn’t waist my time, arguing with a bunch of idiots, THERE ARE NONE BLINDER THEN THOSE WHO REFUSE TO SEE!
IF YOU ALL BELEVE ONE THING GO AHEAD, AND BELEVE IT. THAT DOESN’T MAKE IT TRUE!!
So for now good buy *** FORUM, AND IM GOING TO SELL MY PROTÉGÉ FOR A CIVIC. SIMPLY BECAUSE I CAN’T FEEL SMART ABOUT BUYING A PROTÉGÉ NOW THAT I KNOW ONLY MORONS HAVE BOUGHT THE CAR!
Good NIGHT AND GO TO HELL!
I WAS PLAYING NICE, ONLY RUDE TO THE ONE RUDE TO ME AND YOU WANT TO START **** BECAUSE YOU AND YOUR BUDIES HAVE BEEN ON THIS *** FORUM LONGER……….GO TO HELL ***** FARTS!
Believe what you want. I posted the fact that this subject is debatable, there are people saying it doesn’t help, and people saying it does. There is no proof disproving the other, and in fact, both sides wield evidence to prove there claims! THIS IS A DEBATABLE ISHUE!!!! *** HOLE!!!!!!!!!!
**** you all if this is how you are, go bomb Iran or come Bomb us, you ******* Freedom Fighting Posers only after oil anyway!
You **** must spend all day on this site, I mean come on Radimus, 5000+ post since 2003, Do you even have a real life????????????? You probably aint had ***** since ***** had you!!!!!!!!!!!!!
******* Queer, be GOD of your *** forum, and continue to **** yourself in the *** with a rusty fork, as me and my Dad take turns on your Mother
I wont be back, don’t worry I wouldn’t waist my time, arguing with a bunch of idiots, THERE ARE NONE BLINDER THEN THOSE WHO REFUSE TO SEE!
IF YOU ALL BELEVE ONE THING GO AHEAD, AND BELEVE IT. THAT DOESN’T MAKE IT TRUE!!
So for now good buy *** FORUM, AND IM GOING TO SELL MY PROTÉGÉ FOR A CIVIC. SIMPLY BECAUSE I CAN’T FEEL SMART ABOUT BUYING A PROTÉGÉ NOW THAT I KNOW ONLY MORONS HAVE BOUGHT THE CAR!
Good NIGHT AND GO TO HELL!
February-8th-2005 | 08:47 PM
#29
little asian member
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 572
From: Tucson, AZ
wtf happened to this thread? holy hell cows...
anyway, from what i have read, and many good articles have been written regarding this, you only use the octane necessary to not have any knocking or pinging. how about this... i'll run 91 octane from now until the next dyno day. i'll post a dyno from when i was running 87 and the new dyno running 91. then we can compare if there's really a difference. the next dyno day is in march.
anyway, from what i have read, and many good articles have been written regarding this, you only use the octane necessary to not have any knocking or pinging. how about this... i'll run 91 octane from now until the next dyno day. i'll post a dyno from when i was running 87 and the new dyno running 91. then we can compare if there's really a difference. the next dyno day is in march.
