ibanez78

well i've decided that i want to get an amp and leave my stock radio, so i need advice on an amp to get, i want to run all 4 speakers and i want to be able to use the speaker wires as inputs to the amp, i've already installed some Infinity 692.5i 6" x 9" speakers in the rear and i'll be changing the front ones soon, so, can anyone suggest an amp that would work for me

hihoslva

I can suggest the amp I just installed - Lanzar Vibe 428. Kicks some real nice power for the money - $130 shipped from www.ikesound.com.

You will need line-level adapters (LOC's) however, because this amp does not accept speaker level inputs. I can suggest www.davidnavone.com for some good quality LOC's.

Whatever you decide, I would look for an amp that puts out anywhere from 50 to 125 watts per channel at 4 ohms. The Infinity speakers do well within a large range of power, but I would stay above 50 watts per channel to get some good volume.

~HH

MisterT

What kind of price range are you looking at? From there, you can get advice on what amp sounds the best or is at least would be recommended within the price range that you select.

Mister T

ibanez78

price isn't too much of a problem, i'd say tops 400 canadian, but i'm thinking i'd like to get something that puts out in the range of 80 watts per channel

MisterT

If I were you, I would try to narrow it down to a select few and go in to the store with your favorite CD and listen to all of them pushing only the same kind of speakers (if they don't sell yours, then have them pushing the same size drivers as you have, like the 6x9's and so forth). Don't let them fool you in to running the entire show room off of one amp. I had one guy do that one time, and then after purchasing it, he told me not to run 2 4Ohm subs because the amp would read one ohm and wouldn't be stable. This after him telling me that it was stable to push all the speakers in the show room. What a crock!
Anyways, you should hear an audible difference between the amps. And then you can decifer which one to choose from there. Also, you can bring different CDs with different types of music to see how each amp performs. Hope this helps!


Mister T

hihoslva

Not really, man. Something I learned by researching audio is that an amp that puts out 100 watts will sound exactly the same as another amp that also puts out 100 watts.

A watt is is a watt, and there is no way to have "quality" watts or "crappy" watts.

Think of it like an electric outlet. There can be a lot of electricity flowing through the lines, or a little - but the electricity itself does not change in "quality". Electric is electric, and watts are electricity.

The audible difference in amplifiers comes from the ACTUAL power they put out. Just because two amps both advertise they are 500 watts does not mean they put out the same power.

Amp #1 may be ABLE to put out 700 watts MAXIMUM, when driven to unacceptable distortion levels, etc. But advertises fairly as 500 watts that are USEABLE.

Amp #2 may be ABLE to put out the 500 watts it claims, but only when driven to excessively high levels, at which point the power will do nothing but blow speakers and sound like crap. So maybe the USEABLE watts are more like 300.

The thing is - at volume levels where both amps are putting out 150 watts, they will sound exactly the same. This assumes all crossovers, etc. are off.

Noted car audio expert Richard Clark has an ongoing "amp challenge" to confirm this. He has put up $10 grand for ANYONE who can actually HEAR the difference (and prove it in multiple blind listening tests) between two amps putting out the exact same amount of power, regardless of price or "quality". A $1000 JL audio amp will sound exactly the same as a $50 Jensen amp if both are truly putting out the same power.

A watt is a watt.

Choosing amps is all about the features, and the actual power. Many cheaper brands ADVERTISE high power, but only produce it
under extreme conditions. More reputable, and often (but not always) more expensive amps will be able to put out the rated power all day long within acceptable distortion limits.

Listening to the amps IS the right way to go, though. But it is important that EVERYTHING else remain the same - speakers, head unit, etc. As well as have the settings the same on the amps in question. It's no good to compare amps where the gain and crossover settings are not closely matched up. The easiest thing is probably to put the gains on each amp as close to halfway as possible, and have all crossovers off. If you are choosing amps for subs, try to set the crossovers the same, at like 80 or 100 Hz.

Then you will be able to get a fair comparison of the power output of each and weigh that against the other features and the cost.

~HH

demoninvictus

but hiho, what your logistically saying is that the idea, "you get what you pay for" drastically comes into play. WHAT companies out there LIE, and what companies DON'T lie? i use a JBL with the equipment i have, and it 'says' it puts out 200 watts max, or 100 watts to 2 channels at 4 ohms. now i picked up an older model sony amplifier, a 2 channel version, had 680 max power printed RIGHT on the amplifier. now, i do forget the specifics, but it was rated at putting 150 watts out to 2 channels at 4 ohms. i wired it exactly the same as my JBL amplifier, fucked with the gains, the crossovers all that i wanted, even messed with the ohm levels, dropping the amp to a 2 ohm level to see if i could get the sound that i wanted.. i was dissatisfyed. the sony amp was a complete piece of ****, even with crossovers turned all the way down, it sounded like ****. my jbl has the ability to have the gains all the way up with the crossovers on low, and the frequencies adjusted to let out everything below about 120 or 180hz, i forget what i had it at.. the bottom line is the sony couldn't NEARLY compare to my jbl. so whats the card here man, why wasn't the higher watted sony ideal with my equipment, it says it will run a more powerful 4 ohm load, but at even half volume and half adjustment, the damn thing sounded like mud. my subs don't hit like they do on the sony amp like they do on my jbl which advertises less power??? what companies DON'T lie?
peace

4 rubBeR

I dunno HH. I have a Marantz amp and a Yamaha amp at home and the Marantz blows away the Yamaha as far as noise reduction, richness in sound, etc...

All I know is what my ears tell me. And without a doubt, all amps are not created equal.

No flame, just IMHO

~4 rubBeR

hihoslva

What companies don't lie? That's tough to tell, of course!

JBL is a respected company, and their amps have been tested to produce more power than advertised. The class D 1200.1 and 600.1 have been tested to produce over 1350 and 700 respectively. That's a solid amp. You can buy a 1200.1, and actually get 1200 watts to USE.

Some of the companies (Rockford Fosgate comes to mind) that include "birth sheets" with their amps showing the actual tested MAX output are good, too.

Fact is, amp compaines can put whatever they want on a box. You can take the crappiest amp in the world, hook it up to an unsafe .5 ohm load, hit it with 16 volts of power and get 1000 watts out of it - for 1/4 second. But no one stops them from putting "1000 watts" on the box.

This is why doing real-world comparisons are a great idea. With the gains on several amps set the same, listening to the same music, with the same head unit and using the same speakers, you can get a good sense of who's laying down the watts, and who's just laying...err...ahem...lying.

"You get what you pay for" is frequently true. However, also realize that you also pay for the full-page magazine ads, the super $100,000 demo cars, the fancy packaging, etc. YOU pay for it all. Expensive does not always mean good.

I took a chance on my Lanzar amps, and I think they are a steal. I knew that I was buying something cheap, and that the rated output might be a lie. And truth be told, it STILL might be a lie. I don't know for sure if I am getting 125 watts per channel. But I DO know it's more powerful than the 90 watts I had before from my Rockford (with birth sheet), which means it's close enough. And for the price I paid, I was willing to accept a little bit of underrating, and I'm very satisfied with how the amps perform. Cheap does not always mean bad, either.

Your issue with the Sony amp could have been from a ton of different things. But most likely, the Sony just lied. I mean, do the math - if it says "680 watts max power" , that probably means 340 watts MAX x 2 @ 2 ohms. And since the MAX output is often rated as DOUBLE the RMS output (I know my Lanzars are), that means 170 watts RMS x 2 @ 2 ohms. Drop some more impedance on them, and you come up with 85 watts RMS x 2 @ 4 ohms. And that's assuming it can even actually DO the 680 to begin with! So is it any wonder why it sounded worse than your JBL? It was less power! Regardless of what is printed on the amp or box, sometimes you need to dig deeper. If I did not investigate, I would walk around thinking I have 2200 watts of Lanzar power in my hatch. But I DON'T! That's just what's printed on the amp. But the literature clearly states that the 4 channel will do 125 watts RMS x 4 @ 4 ohms (500 total) and the 2 channel will do 300 watts x 2 RMS @ 2 ohms (600 total). So 1100 watts - HALF the "printed" power. And that's assuming it actually does that much RMS - the actual values might be a little less.

Are the numbers on the top fo my amp (1000 watts and 1200 watts) lies? Depends on who you ask. I say no - because I know what I've got and what it does. To someone expecting to actually GET 2200 watts for $260 shipped, they'll feel ripped off and lied to. If you thought you would GET 680 watts from that Sony, you feel cheated. But if you knew what it could (and should) actually do, you wouldn't feel so lied to.

~HH

hihoslva

That probably means that the the Marantz actually puts out more power than the Yamaha. Thus when listening at the same volume levels, the Marantz is not pushed as hard and the music sounds better and less noisy.

This is regardless of what the amps "say" they produce as far as watts. It's actual power that matters.

As far a noise reduction, though - lots of things can play into this. Dust, a little moisture inside the casing, etc. - there are lots of variables. But in the end, a watt IS a watt, and there cannot be "good" watts and "bad" watts.

There is also the issue of sound processing. In the absence of processing, there is no difference. Maybe you simply prefer the onboard processing of the sound from the Marantz. Possibly it has an input voltage booster, to boost the signal for better amplification. There are a whole host of variables that *can* make amps sound different. But it's not in the power.

If you could test the two amps and hook them up to put out the exact same amount of power (well under the max output, of course), with all processing off (preferably completely physically bypassed) they should (and will) sound the same.

No flame here, either - but I can point you in the direction of Richard Clark's amp challenge if you'd like. If you really think there is such a huge difference, it's an easy $10 grand payday.

~HH

MisterT

I have to disagree with you on that hh, in that I have experienced amps produce more a "warm sound" that is brighter sounding than other amps. I had a 40wattsx2channel Alpine amp and a more expensive 75wattx2channel Kenwood amp, and at the same volumes, the Alpine was much more cleaner sounding than the Kenwood amp was. At the time I sold the Kenwood amp because I wanted SQ more than how loud the speakers got.

I notice a difference in home amps too. My N.A.D. integrated amp had a different sound than the Audire amp that I ended up purchasing it because I already had the N.A.D. (and used the N.A.D. as a preamp). It is half as powerful as the Kenwood receiver I have now, but the sound is much better.


Interesting though about Richard Clark's challenge. He is like Arnold Schwartzenagger to the car audio world. He has won so many trophies and IASCA competitions.

I do know what you mean about how companies rate their amps (i.e. 1000watts total power at 1 millisecond versus a smaller supposably less powerful amp, but more stable at higher volume and thus putting out more wattage).

A lot of companies can get away with claims because of people unaware of what to look for. And then there are those that you pay for the name, but that is another story.

MiStEr T

Sir Nuke

OKAY, back to helping Ibanez.

a very good amp for your application would be the ALPINE V-POWER MRP-F200, or the newly released version which is the MRP-F240. Both have the same specs, its just that the 240's case is a little different, new design for the new year.... its 40Watts/channel RMS. I have the 5 channel version which adds an additional single 120 watt channel for a sub. both of these amps are about $200 US/$390 CDN.

Dave Cameron

Sir Nuke- I will try to keep on topic, but some of the flak warrents another string perhaps.
I have noted the new JBL/Crown amps are now out, I have ordered one- They look pretty cool, and I hope they will meet specs.
(off the topic now! )
There are no standards for car audio specifications, so most manufacturers use the specifications that are most kind to their amp. The worst examples are the really low end flea market stuff where the will pick the best result by cataegory! For example, they will list output at 100 watts, which may be true with 15% distortion, but then list distortion of .0005 which might be true when pushing only 5 watts!
Most of the more reputable companies, and the ones in question in this thread are reputable, use consistent numbers that match up, one just needs to read them carefully.
Comparisons of amps are tough to do- when one says the one sounds better than another it is more antidotial rather than played out science. I am convert on the whole subject, and my friend Richard did the converting of me on this subject a few years back.
Richard is the 800 pound gorilla of the subject without a doubt. He offers up 10,000.00 to anyone who can acutally tell the difference between amps done in a double blind test. No one has yet to win, and richard has had the offer on the table for at least 7 years that I know of.
The same is clearly ture of home audio also, no matter how tough a nut that is to swallow- trust me for me that is hard- I have a Onkyo based home theater and a Krell system in my study. On truely equal footing, one could not tell them apart- amplification is a activity of electrons and physics, and trueful measurements.
The hard thing is controlling all the other varables to affect sound. Tone, db output, even room and humidity have effects on how something sounds.
While I want my Krell to sound "better" than the Onkyo, I can't delude myself any longer to think that it really does sound anybetter.

demoninvictus

ok hiho, so you're officially backing lanzar amps, i'm actually interested in the power to the price you get on those things, however was very skeptical, what amp would give me the greatest load at four ohms, say 200x2 at 4 ohms and i can count on that amp giving at least a decent amount of useable power like i get out of my jbl amp. ultimately, i'm going to run that jbl1200 actually (been researching and reading for the longest time) and 2 10's or 12's in my trunk once i figure out how much it's all going to cost me for wiring, maybe if i get tens i avoid the cost of a new prefab box, ect. i'm only running 8 gauge now, but what lanzar amp would you recommend i use to run my 2 RF subs, say at anywhere from 150 to 225 at four ohms. i don't know that the subs are 2 ohm stable and are never advertised as being so, i'd have to look at spec sheets. thanks bud.
peace

hihoslva

Well, first things first, I suppose:

Uhh - I'm no spokesperson. I'd hate to have someone not be happy with my recommendation. However my experince with these amps have been very positive.

This is tough to say. First of all, I don't even know what JBL you've got right now. Second, I'm not sure what you mean about the "greatest load at 4 ohms" and "200x2 @ 4ohms" - you mean the most power? Is the 200 x 2 @ 4 ohms EACH channel, or do you really mean 400 x 1 bridged @ 4 ohms? It makes a huge difference, and you really wouldn't want to run subs in stereo (watts x 2) anyway.

Quote:

ultimately, i'm going to run that jbl1200 actually (been researching and reading for the longest time) and 2 10's or 12's in my trunk once i figure out how much it's all going to cost me for wiring, maybe if i get tens i avoid the cost of a new prefab box, ect.

All Ic an say is that if you WANT the JBL, go get it! It's better to do things the way you like the first time, rather than doing them over again. But, Lanzar DOES make their own comparable amp to the JBL 1200; the Vibe 1200.1D. Been getting lots of respect recently, and is a solid amp from what I have read.

Quote:

i'm only running 8 gauge now, but what lanzar amp would you recommend i use to run my 2 RF subs, say at anywhere from 150 to 225 at four ohms.

Is that 150-225 @ 4 ohms on EACH channel? Or 4 ohms when the subs are wired mono to the amp? If your subs are 4 ohms each, I would suggest a class D amp like the JBL or the Vibe 1200. Two 4 ohm subs can only be wired to 8 ohms or 2 ohms together. 8ohms mono (same as 4 ohm x 2 stereo) will not allow you to get the most out of your amp, and very few - if any - 2 channel amps can handle a 2 ohm load. Most class D monoblock amplifiers can handle a 2 ohm load all day long.

Quote:

i don't know that the subs are 2 ohm stable and are never advertised as being so, i'd have to look at spec sheets.

I think you're a little confused. SUBS are not "ohm stable". AMPS are. A sub is rated at a normal (nominal) impedance load, and depending on the wiring scheme used, can present a certain impedance load to the amp. Amps are rated based upon the minimum impedance load they can handle without overheating. Generally, 2 channel amplifiers can handle 2 ohm loads per channel (and no less), or 4 ohms when the channels are bridged together. Class D monoblocks can usually handle 2 ohms or less - some down below 1 ohm. Regardless, any amp can handle higher impedance loads, but this reduces the power the amp can produce. [/b][/quote]

Quote:

thanks bud.
peace

No problem.

~HH