Hey all,

I'm planning on testing the waters of STS and I was wondering if there was anyone else out there doing the same that would be willing to share setup info, etc.
For starters, I have my "H-Stock" suspension setup with the Bilstein Shocks. I ordered the AWR 21.5 adjustable bar and it should be in this week. I figure the rear swaybar is the "heart" of the Protege suspension and will be the best sign of whether or not the car will work well for STS.
David, having built up your STS car, do you have any words of wisdom or key parts that really made a difference?
I'm trying to do a little R&D without spending too much and straying too far that I can't get my car back to H-Stock if they end up reclassing the Mini Cooper next year.

Thanks,

 

Nice, welcome to the crowded, crowd (atleast here in SoCal it is)

strut bars, sway bars and a set of Azenis

the biggest difference was in the rear sway bar.

Only person i know of running G3 in STS is Richie, Silver sedan, San Diego.

 

Steve Bradford is racing a Protege 5 in STS in the San Francisco region quite successfully. I'll be talking to him next weekend at the Atwater NT. I'll try to steer him in this direction. I'll at least try to get set-up info from him for you.

Last year, when he was running in HS, he was on Mazdaspeed struts. Not sure if he still is. I know that both Tein and JIC make coli-overs, with JIC (US) saying they do customization for autocrossers.

I'd think that you'd want to be at least where we are on spring rates (250/200 F/R). I'd think that stiffer would be better, but not more than 375 in front. Then again, our local competitor, Hiroo Sumida is running 600 lb wheel rates on his Subie and they seem to work for him. Of course, high spring rates and stiff (hi compression rate) shocks aren't likely going to work very well. I don't have enough rebound damping in the front Mazdaspeeds to go much stiffer than 250lbs.

When Will upped the ante, I realized how much better the coil-overs and camber plates were. The camber plates helped ultimate grip (as well as lowering tire wear), but the car really needed to be stiff in the rear to work. As an example, I mis-adjusted my rear struts on Sunday at the Fontana Pro (set them on 2 instead of 4), and the car just wouldn't rotate (I've made the "4" much more visible since then).

 

David,

So do you think the stiffer shocks are to an advantage? Right now my Bilstein's are pretty stiff- ask Jesse- My car felt stiffer than his just driving around the parking lot and such and he had springs. The only drawback with my Stock suspension is that without the bigger bar or springs, eventually the shock will travel and it feels like the front wheel wants to pick up- so I get a lot of wheel spin coming out of turnarounds and sweepers. I'm hoping the sway bar will limit the suspension travel/ body roll in the back and keep those front wheels planted.
As far as springs go-I know I'd want coilovers so I've got two options:
1. Keep the Bilsteins and get a Ground Control Coilover set, or 2. ditch the Bilsteins and go with a Tein or JIC set. Right now, I'm thinking a Ground Control kit with some good rates would be nice (and affordable). The *extra* money could go toward some camber plates.
I guess I'll judge what kind of rates I need based on how the car drives with the bar- but I'm thinking I want something like yours, but a little stiffer since my shocks should be able to handle it. Something like 325 or 300# up front and 275 or 250# in the back. I figure the big adjustable rear swaybar will be strong enough to go stiffer on the front springs.
Are you and Will running 15"x7" rims?

 

Last first. Will is running 15 x 7 Kosei K-1s with 38mm offset, I'm running 15 x 7 Enkei RP-01s with 35mm offset. There are also some new 15 x 7 Enkeis that are just under 10 lbs that our friend Art Rinner (SE-R) is running. They run ~$200.

Are your Bilsteins stiff in compression, rebound, or both. What limits the front Mazdaspeeds is that they have too much compression to run much stiffer than 250lb springs. If they had less compression, they likely could handle 300 lb springs. The higher the spring rate, the more rebound and less compression you need, generally speaking.

Having lots of rear rebound is what helped my car. The rear Mazdaspeed struts have very little compression difference between 1 and 4 (maybe 20-30%), while having a large rebound change (probably 30-40% or more per click). As an example, I can't pull the nut hard enough with the rears set on 4 to extend the strut, but I can do it easily on "1".

Like I said, I should have more answers for you by next Monday as to what works on the 3rd-gen Protege. I'm sure Steve Bradford will share.

 

What about AWR? They sell a coilover kit that uses Bilstein inserts. I don't know if they're the same type of inserts that you've got in your struts, but maybe they could convert your existing HS suspension into coilovers and revalve your inserts to match the springs while they're at it. Might be cheaper than a Tein or JIC setup.

Of course, the nice thing about going the Tein/JIC route is the adjustability. I am mainly tempted by the Teins because they're cheaper, but the front springs listed on their website seem awful stiff (336#). However, I follow your argument about pairing them with a big rear bar, and best way to find out if it works is to try it. Of course, Tein also sells different springs for all their coilovers, so you can always shell out a little money if the 336# springs don't work out.

 

Well, got the 21.5mm bar from AWR and the Swaybar is installed. It was wet last night so I can't give you a full report, and I live in Florida so the roads are just flat and straight- no good "test roads". Initial impressions are favorable Turn-in is awesome , seems to have more bite. And exiting a turn the car wants to bite in rather than push out like it used to.

Hopefully I'll have some Autocross time this weekend or next.

Later,

 

that exactly what i felt when i went to a bigger bar. Less understeer and less oversteer...didn't break loose as easy, it stuck and felt like the rear was steering. Definetely a VERY cool feeling when it happens Right up there with freeway on-ramp G's...

 

I talked to Steven Bradford over the weekend. He is still using the Mazdaspeed struts with Eibach springs and the 21.5mm AWR rear bar. He is running with 16 x 7 (heavy) wheels with 215/45-16 Azenis. Seemed to work pretty well. He said that wheelspin was no longer a problem.

You can check out his results at http://www.scca.com/amateur/solo2/na...er/atwater.pdf

It should be noted that STX ran 1st and STS ran 2nd. It rained on Saturday, stopping at the beginning of the 3rd runs in the 1st group, restarted at the beginning of the 2nd group and stopping again at the end of the 2nd group.

Oh, and the course was designed by a noted CP Mustang driver. It was full of slaloms, but they were all pretty much taken flat (under acceleration). Lots of acceleration time (which explains why a Taurus SHO was in 5th after Saturday).

 

thanks for the info,

Part of the wheelspin may be *solved* by adding heavier wheels. But I have noticed the car had more grip since I put the bar on.
Its nice to see STX ahead of STS for a change! I guess the Horsepower course design helped that out. I didn't realize you were running STX these days- any changes to the car or just running a different class than Will? Congrats on beating the MazdaSpeed, too.
I'm going to run my car this weekend and compare times to G and H-Stock, I don't know how well I'll do on my non-azenis Falkens, though.

Any tire pressure advice? I was going to try to start around 38 lbs and go from there.

Later

 

The winning STX car used to be an SM car (with a 2.5L motor vs. the stock 2.3L M3 motor), and likely isn't STX-legal, but no one would put up the $2k+ to tear down a Motorsports motor. And STS (McCormick) was faster on Sunday.

It was a weird run group for both STS and STX. In the first run group (STX), it would stop raining as I went out for my first run, so the cars later in the order got a drier course. It completely stopped raining after my second run, but was still very wet on one fast part of the course for my 3rd run. Gary Szabo (2nd driver in WRX) took his runs so late they almost had to hold up his co-driver to give them 5 minutes between runs. His last, and best run, was 15 minutes after the rest of STX on an almost dry course. Stupid Novice grid workers.

In the second group, it started raining just before the start of the group. Had they not had a course worker delay, STS would have gotten their first runs in the dry. As it was, it got progressively wetter during the group, and Will spun my car on his first run. But McCormick was on shaved Kumho MXs, and probably had 2/32nd or less tread on a course with intermittent puddles.

BTW, watching McCormick bounce on the bumper and watching the car cycle through the camber changes was pretty sick.

Will and I were expecting typical 100 degree Atwater weather, and figured that there wouldn't be adequate time to cool the Azenis between runs, and since he had the best chance of winning in STS, I ran STX. Then Schubert in the BMW showed up, Noorgard in the Civic, and Walters in the 325, and it turned out to be a HP course in cold weather. On reflection, I should have switched back to STS, but, oh well.

And the Mazdaspeed was stock except for 225/45-17 Azenis. That car is gonna be fast with some camber. I kept screwing up one turn on Saturday. Had it been dry there (as it was for Szabo), I could have easily been a second faster (but I got great drift points from the course workers).

I'd have tire pressure advice for Azenis (38/34 and work from there, but with substantial negative camber, you can't get them to roll over, no matter how low you go.:-) ). For other street tires, I'd probably go quite a bit higher. I think 40-44, depending to the tires or surface.

 

Well got back from the autocross today in Lakeland with initial runs with the rear swaybar. Looks like this could be a good thing
I finished either 4th or 5th in STS- which was where I thought I would be just based on the few mods and crappy tires.
However, there were 3 SVT Focus and I think I beat them all

I was only 1.2 secs behind Elliot Harvey's NX2000. And that was on regular Falken street tires (not Azenis). I tried to start with tire pressures at 41 lbs and the car would not turn!! I backed em down to 37 lbs all the way around and it felt and drove much better.
To me, the swaybar didn't seem to cause too much oversteer, but everyone watching said it looked like it was really tail happy- so I think it's just right. I guess after driving an S2000 last week, the Protege did not feel tail happy. Also improved was the reduced wheelspin on corner exiting- it was practically gone
So now I'm working on scoring a set of Azenis, and some springs. I definately feel the front springs need to be stiffer than the back to balance the car better, and get more turn in. Also camber should help, and I have a feeling I'm going to want a considerable amount of camber in the back. Maybe throw in a CAI and I should be good to go to be able to run with Elliot a little better.
I should have done this STS thing last year!!
What are Kumho MX's? I haven't seen any info on them.
Any recommedations on springs (coilovers)- I figure Ground Control is probably a safe bet and worth the extra cash over the no-name brand coilover spring sets.

 

What shocks are you going to use them with, or are you going to revalve the Bilsteins?

I think that the question of what coilover to use depends a lot on the shocks. The only *adjustable* off-the-shelf shocks for our cars are still the expensive no-warranty Mazdaspeeds, and I've been hearing some folks on this forum complain about how the compression damping goes up too much when the shocks are stiffened. Also, $180/shock + $400 coilovers = $1,120, which is so close to the price of the Tein SS kit that you might as well get the fully rebuildable, revalveable, 16-way adjustable Teins instead.

If only Koni would get off high center and release a set of yellow Sports for the 99+ Pro.

 

I'm going to leave the Bilstiens at their current valving (which is very stiff) for now. I just want to get a set of Coilover Springs (like ground controls), so I can adjust the ride height and spec out my spring rates. Are there other companies that make a Ground Control-type setup but are less expensive?

I think eventually, I may want to go with the Teins- but that would be only if I couldn't get the Bilsteins to work out. Right now, I'm trying to get minimal investment into it- after I run some National Events, then I'll be able to judge where I should spend the money.

 

Skunk2 ?