Suspension Setup- AutoX
September-27th-2002 | 06:51 PM
#1
Thread Starter
Protege Enthusiast
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 201
From: Palm Coast, FL
Suspension Setup- AutoX
Hey guys,
Just wanted to start a little suspension discussion here. Now that we are in the Post-Nationals racing, its a good time to try out some new setups and experiment.
What do you guys have for suspension set ups on your Autocross Protege's. List parts, settings (if you have adjustable parts), and alignment if you know it- and tell us how it drives.
I'll go first
Car: 2000 Protege ES (1.8L)
class: H-Stock
parts: Bilstein Shocks, Hoosier Autocross tires (225-45-15, 205-50-15)
tire pressures (typical dry): 49 lbs (front) 56 lbs (rear)
alignment:
as much negative camber as I can get (about -.5 degrees)
front toe: 1/8" out
rear toe: 1/8" out
caster: not sure, but have the shocks rotated forward and in on the shock mount.
**note: toe measurements listed using the "coke can and measuring tape method, on pretty flat surface"
Handles fairly neutral and oversteers easily when induced with brakes. The car really likes to be tossed through offsets and slaloms, and loves the big sweeping transitions.
One thing I would like to improve is the steering response- it seems to be a little delayed turning in- I'm going to check my alignment and maybe try a little more toe out in the front.
OK guys and gals, it your turn, lets try to start a little database of autocross info sharing. It might be interesting to see some MX-6, Probe and Escort setups as well.
Just wanted to start a little suspension discussion here. Now that we are in the Post-Nationals racing, its a good time to try out some new setups and experiment.
What do you guys have for suspension set ups on your Autocross Protege's. List parts, settings (if you have adjustable parts), and alignment if you know it- and tell us how it drives.
I'll go first
Car: 2000 Protege ES (1.8L)
class: H-Stock
parts: Bilstein Shocks, Hoosier Autocross tires (225-45-15, 205-50-15)
tire pressures (typical dry): 49 lbs (front) 56 lbs (rear)
alignment:
as much negative camber as I can get (about -.5 degrees)
front toe: 1/8" out
rear toe: 1/8" out
caster: not sure, but have the shocks rotated forward and in on the shock mount.
**note: toe measurements listed using the "coke can and measuring tape method, on pretty flat surface"
Handles fairly neutral and oversteers easily when induced with brakes. The car really likes to be tossed through offsets and slaloms, and loves the big sweeping transitions.
One thing I would like to improve is the steering response- it seems to be a little delayed turning in- I'm going to check my alignment and maybe try a little more toe out in the front.
OK guys and gals, it your turn, lets try to start a little database of autocross info sharing. It might be interesting to see some MX-6, Probe and Escort setups as well.
October-2nd-2002 | 12:09 AM
#2
Hoosier daddy?
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 563
From: Atlanta, GA
how did you adjust your camber? I haven't looked too closely at it myself, but would be interested to know.
I got mine too late in the season to ever take it to an event. (I'd been running an Escort, that is until it died) Next season I'll be running bone stock with the exception of a set of hand-me-down wheels and Khumo VictoRacer 205/55/R14's (shhhh, different size than stock
)
Needless to say, my curiosity is peaked about the handling of this car. Just driving it on the road around corners feels 10 times better than the ol' 'scort.
Please define 
...that sounds rather curious. I've been using a set of plates with slits cut into either end and a pair of measuring tapes to check my toe. For the camber, my boss has a triangular device with a digital level on it used specifically for camber (I, for the life of me, can't remember its name)
I got mine too late in the season to ever take it to an event. (I'd been running an Escort, that is until it died) Next season I'll be running bone stock with the exception of a set of hand-me-down wheels and Khumo VictoRacer 205/55/R14's (shhhh, different size than stock
)Needless to say, my curiosity is peaked about the handling of this car. Just driving it on the road around corners feels 10 times better than the ol' 'scort.
coke can and measuring tape method, on pretty flat surface"
...that sounds rather curious. I've been using a set of plates with slits cut into either end and a pair of measuring tapes to check my toe. For the camber, my boss has a triangular device with a digital level on it used specifically for camber (I, for the life of me, can't remember its name)
October-2nd-2002 | 12:50 AM
#3
Registered User
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 2,367
From: Huntington Beach, CA Uhhh Surfs up Dude
Car: 1990 LX
Class: STS
parts (suspension): ZX2 S/R Tokico Struts, MX3 H&R springs, RMM front strut bar, Autotech rear strut bar, custom lower tie bars (f+r), Susp. Tech. rear sway bar, poly sway bushings (f+r), Falken Azenis 205/50/15
tire pressures (cold): 38 front 40 rear
alignment: stock except for crash bolts (the poor mans neg. camber)
the car feels very balanced, with the addition of the H&R springs and ST rear sway bar, the rear works better and turn in is more crisp, oversteer is still there, but not at snappy as with the stock sway bar. The car feels made for slaloms, it feels soooooo nice, but i too get the slight glitch, i guess, it feels jerky and has hard spots, as best as i can describe it....I wish it had more power, but it's a total blast to drive, smiles and hell ya's all day long dude!
Class: STS
parts (suspension): ZX2 S/R Tokico Struts, MX3 H&R springs, RMM front strut bar, Autotech rear strut bar, custom lower tie bars (f+r), Susp. Tech. rear sway bar, poly sway bushings (f+r), Falken Azenis 205/50/15
tire pressures (cold): 38 front 40 rear
alignment: stock except for crash bolts (the poor mans neg. camber)
the car feels very balanced, with the addition of the H&R springs and ST rear sway bar, the rear works better and turn in is more crisp, oversteer is still there, but not at snappy as with the stock sway bar. The car feels made for slaloms, it feels soooooo nice, but i too get the slight glitch, i guess, it feels jerky and has hard spots, as best as i can describe it....I wish it had more power, but it's a total blast to drive, smiles and hell ya's all day long dude!
October-3rd-2002 | 05:31 AM
#4
Protege Enthusiast
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 283
From: Debt, Ca.
This should be a good thread.
After I deem my car to be suitably broken in, I'll venture into H-Stock a few times. I will be running bone stock, so I'll likely get pasted.
I used to run in F-Stock...H-Stock has to be easier.
Anyway, just out of curiosity, what class would I be placed in with MP3 struts, springs, and a rear sway bar?
After I deem my car to be suitably broken in, I'll venture into H-Stock a few times. I will be running bone stock, so I'll likely get pasted.
I used to run in F-Stock...H-Stock has to be easier.
Anyway, just out of curiosity, what class would I be placed in with MP3 struts, springs, and a rear sway bar?
October-3rd-2002 | 06:39 PM
#6
Thread Starter
Protege Enthusiast
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 201
From: Palm Coast, FL
Coke Can and measuring tape
OK here's how the Coke Can & Measuring tape works. I may have to take pictures of this method, but I try to describe.
Materials needed:
Measuring tape
2 Coke cans (or any two objects that are the same height)
2 people
flat surface- like a garage or level parking lot
pen & paper
1. Set up
1 person goes to one of the drivers side wheels, the other to the passenger side wheel.
Place Coke can at the front of the wheel- so that the can sits flat and the rim of the can touches a groove in the tire. This gives you an even height on each wheel to measure the width.
Pick out a specific groove in the tire and make sure you measure off of the same groove each time.
2. Measure front side
Have one person hold the end of the measuring tape in the groove on one side of the car and then measure to the grove on your side of the tire. Let's say you measure 55" across from groove to groove(write this down).
3. Measure back side
Repeat the process on the back side of the same wheel- Make sure you use the same grooves in the tire as before. Let's say you measure 54 7/8" on the back (write this down).
4. Do the math
55- 54 7/8= 1/8" Toe out
5. Drive the car and see how it feels! Keep a log book if you like.
Its not terribly precise, but what this does is establish a reference point of where you can quickly change and measure toe when you are at an event. When you get your alignment done at a shop, just have them zero it out so you can tweak it to the Coke can system (an 1/8" toe out on the Coke can system, may actually be like 1/4" out on a real rack- well, I guess they actually measure in degrees- maybe we need to develop a compass measuring system!!).
Remember measurements change the taller the object gets, so make sure you always use the same 2 objects- coke cans are readily available, and they are always the same size- plus Coke is a refreshing drink, and works as a great cleaner for things like battery terminals
Well, I gotta go measure my alignment for this weekend's race.
Later,
Materials needed:
Measuring tape
2 Coke cans (or any two objects that are the same height)
2 people
flat surface- like a garage or level parking lot
pen & paper
1. Set up
1 person goes to one of the drivers side wheels, the other to the passenger side wheel.
Place Coke can at the front of the wheel- so that the can sits flat and the rim of the can touches a groove in the tire. This gives you an even height on each wheel to measure the width.
Pick out a specific groove in the tire and make sure you measure off of the same groove each time.
2. Measure front side
Have one person hold the end of the measuring tape in the groove on one side of the car and then measure to the grove on your side of the tire. Let's say you measure 55" across from groove to groove(write this down).
3. Measure back side
Repeat the process on the back side of the same wheel- Make sure you use the same grooves in the tire as before. Let's say you measure 54 7/8" on the back (write this down).
4. Do the math
55- 54 7/8= 1/8" Toe out
5. Drive the car and see how it feels! Keep a log book if you like.
Its not terribly precise, but what this does is establish a reference point of where you can quickly change and measure toe when you are at an event. When you get your alignment done at a shop, just have them zero it out so you can tweak it to the Coke can system (an 1/8" toe out on the Coke can system, may actually be like 1/4" out on a real rack- well, I guess they actually measure in degrees- maybe we need to develop a compass measuring system!!).
Remember measurements change the taller the object gets, so make sure you always use the same 2 objects- coke cans are readily available, and they are always the same size- plus Coke is a refreshing drink, and works as a great cleaner for things like battery terminals
Well, I gotta go measure my alignment for this weekend's race.
Later,
October-3rd-2002 | 11:05 PM
#8
Protege Enthusiast
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 416
Car: 1990 LX
Class: STS
parts (suspension): Mazdaspeed MX-3 Struts (adjusted to 3/4 F, 4/4 R), Coil-overs (250lbs/12" springs front, 200 lbs/8" rear), Ground Control camber/caster plates, RMM front strut bar, Corksport/Fast rear strut bar, Darryl's front lower tie bar, Susp. Tech. front add-on/Compass rear 1" sway bar, Falken Azenis 205/50/15 on 15" x 7" Enkei RP-01 rims.
tire pressures (cold): 36 front 36-40 rear, 2psi higher hot (bled as needed)
alignment: zero toe front and rear. ~2.25-2.5 deg neg camber in front, 0.25-0.5 negative rear.
The car is very fun to drive (others have confirmed this). It responds well to trail-braking with mild lift-throttle oversteer, although it can be made to spin if you aren't smooth.
Car apparently works well, as I was 11th at Topeka (and would have been 7th had I not run out of gas on the North course, maybe as high as 6th... Easily could have been 3rd...which is not to say other cars couldn't have gone faster too).
Class: STS
parts (suspension): Mazdaspeed MX-3 Struts (adjusted to 3/4 F, 4/4 R), Coil-overs (250lbs/12" springs front, 200 lbs/8" rear), Ground Control camber/caster plates, RMM front strut bar, Corksport/Fast rear strut bar, Darryl's front lower tie bar, Susp. Tech. front add-on/Compass rear 1" sway bar, Falken Azenis 205/50/15 on 15" x 7" Enkei RP-01 rims.
tire pressures (cold): 36 front 36-40 rear, 2psi higher hot (bled as needed)
alignment: zero toe front and rear. ~2.25-2.5 deg neg camber in front, 0.25-0.5 negative rear.
The car is very fun to drive (others have confirmed this). It responds well to trail-braking with mild lift-throttle oversteer, although it can be made to spin if you aren't smooth.
Car apparently works well, as I was 11th at Topeka (and would have been 7th had I not run out of gas on the North course, maybe as high as 6th... Easily could have been 3rd...which is not to say other cars couldn't have gone faster too).
October-4th-2002 | 05:14 PM
#9
Registered User
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 1,122
From: Dallas, Texas
Hey Jason,
Couple questions about the custom-valved Bilsteins you've got for your car...
1) How much did they cost?
2) How much stiffer are they than the stock struts? In other words, is the ride quality tolerable? I assume they aren't adjustable.
I'm contemplating some HS setup for next year.
Couple questions about the custom-valved Bilsteins you've got for your car...
1) How much did they cost?
2) How much stiffer are they than the stock struts? In other words, is the ride quality tolerable?
I assume they aren't adjustable.I'm contemplating some HS setup for next year.
October-5th-2002 | 11:52 AM
#11
Hoosier daddy?
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 563
From: Atlanta, GA
Youre just big time camber limited on the cars. Camber bolts are sold by Mazda Motorsports but they are illegal for H-stock.
October-7th-2002 | 12:14 AM
#12
Registered User
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 1,122
From: Dallas, Texas
Originally posted by kcbhiw
That's what I was afraid of. I knew bolts were illegal for stock, but just wasn't sure if there was any sort of adjustment built into the car, oh well.
That's what I was afraid of. I knew bolts were illegal for stock, but just wasn't sure if there was any sort of adjustment built into the car, oh well.
There is *some* adjustment built into the car, just not very much. The camber and caster are adjusted by unbolting the tops of the struts and rotating them to a different position, but there are only 2 positions for camber or caster and the adjustment range is only +/- 0.5 degrees. You can also try loosening the suspension bolts and pushing onn the tops of the wheels, but there's not much slop in the bolt holes so this trick doesn't work very well.
I have -1.0 degree of camber on one side and -0.7 degree on the other, and I seem to remember that Jason's car is about the same.
October-7th-2002 | 06:57 PM
#13
Thread Starter
Protege Enthusiast
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 201
From: Palm Coast, FL
Answers
OK sorry I'm a little late with answering the questions, but:
Camber: yeah we're SOL in that dept- one of the reasons I'm going to switch to Kumhos next year. (Hoosiers are made for more camber) I guess we could try to petition Mazda Motorsports to try to get the camber bolts legalized for stock autocross. It certainly would help. However, If your bolts got *worn* a little......
Currently I can't get more than -1 degree.
My Shocks:
Built by AWR, revalved to *VERY STIFF* by Bilstein and AWR. I didn't get in on the technical development- basically told them what I was up against with the swaybars and springs I had to use, and told them I wanted the car to oversteer and transition better. I orginally had them valved to the SCCA Trunk Kit Specs, then I sent them in for stiffening even more (since I didn't have the springs and swaybars the trunk kit has). I will try to get some shock dyno info for you techies, if I can, but I think it may be proprietary to AWR and Bilstein.
My Cost on the struts, with one revalve (to the SCCA trunk kit spec) was around $1200 + shipping
the last revalve for all 4 shocks was around $360 (you wouldn't have to pay this extra fee if you have them revalved to my specs from the begining).
The Bilstein shock inserts themselves are only $110 a piece + $60 to $80 for the revalve, and the rest of the cost is machining the stock strut body to accept the bilstein shock. If you have machine capabilties you can save about $400.
My opinon on the shocks: On course they are wonderful!! Lift Throttle oversteer is good and very manageble.
On the street, well, its like driving a car with stiff springs (300-400#) and good shocks- just not lowered. Hey, at least the seat is comfortable!
Bottom line- in stock class you need stiff rear struts. I'm not sure how stiff the Mazdaspeeds are, but Bilstein (AWR) and Koni (ProParts) are the only rebuildable/revalvable ones. If your on a budget, get good struts for the rear. And then save up for the fronts.
I hope that clears things up a little. Chris, if you are interested in getting the shocks, I'm sure AWR (ask for Tony) will be able to fill you in on all the details and specs of the shocks.
Thanks,
Camber: yeah we're SOL in that dept- one of the reasons I'm going to switch to Kumhos next year. (Hoosiers are made for more camber) I guess we could try to petition Mazda Motorsports to try to get the camber bolts legalized for stock autocross. It certainly would help. However, If your bolts got *worn* a little......
Currently I can't get more than -1 degree.
My Shocks:
Built by AWR, revalved to *VERY STIFF* by Bilstein and AWR. I didn't get in on the technical development- basically told them what I was up against with the swaybars and springs I had to use, and told them I wanted the car to oversteer and transition better. I orginally had them valved to the SCCA Trunk Kit Specs, then I sent them in for stiffening even more (since I didn't have the springs and swaybars the trunk kit has). I will try to get some shock dyno info for you techies, if I can, but I think it may be proprietary to AWR and Bilstein.
My Cost on the struts, with one revalve (to the SCCA trunk kit spec) was around $1200 + shipping
the last revalve for all 4 shocks was around $360 (you wouldn't have to pay this extra fee if you have them revalved to my specs from the begining).
The Bilstein shock inserts themselves are only $110 a piece + $60 to $80 for the revalve, and the rest of the cost is machining the stock strut body to accept the bilstein shock. If you have machine capabilties you can save about $400.
My opinon on the shocks: On course they are wonderful!! Lift Throttle oversteer is good and very manageble.
On the street, well, its like driving a car with stiff springs (300-400#) and good shocks- just not lowered. Hey, at least the seat is comfortable!
Bottom line- in stock class you need stiff rear struts. I'm not sure how stiff the Mazdaspeeds are, but Bilstein (AWR) and Koni (ProParts) are the only rebuildable/revalvable ones. If your on a budget, get good struts for the rear. And then save up for the fronts.
I hope that clears things up a little. Chris, if you are interested in getting the shocks, I'm sure AWR (ask for Tony) will be able to fill you in on all the details and specs of the shocks.
Thanks,
October-7th-2002 | 08:56 PM
#14
Hoosier daddy?
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 563
From: Atlanta, GA
thanks for all the info jason. sounds like you have a rather nice set up....i may just look into to those Bilstein. Do you by chance know, off hand, if the rear mounting setup is the same on the P5 as your ES? I would imagine so. $1200 isn't bad at all for what you have, IMHO.
October-12th-2002 | 03:35 PM
#15
Protege Newbie
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 44
From: Indianapolis
Ok, getting in late on this discussion, but have a question. Does anyone have a part number for the "crash bolts" that will work on the front of a 2001 MP3? I met a couple protege owners at Nationals, but never got a part number. (had other things on my mind) I am currently running in GS, and got KILLED at nationals (31/43) I will probably be going to FSP or STS next year, but I would love to find a cheap alternative to camber plates (the crash bolts in question) as regionally I am already kicking butt on the STS guys.
Any info greatly appreciated!
Any info greatly appreciated!